This must be a cultural thing, which is more expected and less surprising from a Dutch European: What struck me about your story is how incredibly rude your fellow party goer seemed to me. Why would one say such a thing to a person who has just done something that is so deeply meaningful and takes so much work and dedication as converting to Catholicism? I'm not Catholic, myself -- I no longer even consider myself a Christian. After decades of consideration, I'm an agnostic who leans towards Buddhism. Still, I respect how meaningful many religions are to those who follow them, and Catholicism (which I have always admired even though, as I said, I don't feel connected to any Christian faith, myself) is a complex and deeply devoted faith. How could a person be so belittling of religion when they've just been told the person standing in front of them has accomplished so much in dedication to their own faith?
Then again, this makes me think of an American I once dated (Ron, who you met at least once, Rachel), an atheist who had lived in the European Netherlands for six years before I met him. At the time, I thought of him as an example of the kind of very smart but unearnedly arrogant young person who likes to hang out in coffee shops, writing bad poetry and contemplating the emptiness of existence, and who also feels very superior to anyone who isn't an atheist like themselves -- a very American way to be young, in my experience. But maybe it was even more Dutch European culture I was seeing in him?
This is definitely a Dutch cultural thing. Statements that would come across as being rude from an American perspective (or a Caribbean perspective) are seen as just being honest to a lot of Dutch people; indeed, I've heard the opposite criticism made that Americans are behaving dishonestly in not being as blunt about their opinions. In the case of my Dutch lawyer interlocutor, I don't think he perceived himself as being rude at all. He seemed more confused and flabbergasted than anything. There is definitely a perception among the European Dutch that religion is something only uneducated people do; since this guy knows what my day job is, I think he found it legit fascinating and freaky that someone with a doctorate in a science is an adult convert to Catholicism. He has other friends who are Catholic (like the host of the party), but I think it's been easier to write them off as "well, they were raised that way."
I had forgotten (or perhaps had not known) that Ron lived in the European Netherlands for several years, but, yeah, that adds up. I think the combination of being argumentative about atheism and spending several formative years in a culture that teaches that is it is morally virtuous to be blunt would be an especially heady mix for a smart young man like him.
It could have been worse. Back when I was an art student and Knew Everything, I had a classmate who, when I first met him, mentioned that he was considering becoming a priest.
I laughed.
Thankfully, he didn't take it as a particular insult, and we went on the become friends. After graduation, he did indeed become a priest, and in a way that encounter planted a seed which ultimately helped guide me back to the church.
How interesting. I might be more comfortable in the Netherlands than I am in the US (er, for cultural reasons, not just because of current US politics)! I've often thought that some cultures are better for certain neurotypes and personality types. For example, Japan has a very introverted culture where people, overall, talk a lot less than Americans do, and I always thought I'd fit in better there.
And if the Dutch tend to be blunt and more comfortable with bluntness, maybe autistic people would get by better there than in the US. I have noticed cultural differences between autistic people who were diagnosed as kids, who tend to be blunt, then explain that they're autistic if someone is offended, and then feel that's permission to go right on being blunt, and late-diagnosed autistic people (like me), who have spent decades still offending people with our bluntness, but having no idea why. We late-discovered ones learn how to mask over time -- how to fit in with non-autistic folks as well as we can, and how well we can do varies from person to person. Even though I didn't know why until I was in my late 40s, I always knew that I tended to say things and then see right away that I wasn't supposed to say that, so I spent my life consciously trying to figure out the patterns and often apologizing profusely (and feeling really dumb) on the occasions when I didn't quite get it. I try very hard to be considerate and polite, but I also often fail because I missed a cue or assumption that was more clear to people with other kinds of brains.
Maybe I should start shopping for a culture that suits me better. I love the British, but they seem to have even more unspoken rules than Americans do! The Dutch might be my kind of folks, though.
“was smart. I devoured works by Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, finding in New Atheism the comfort they mocked believers for finding in faith.”
"We all did a lot of things when we were young that we come to regret." And for so, so many of us it was spending way too much time and energy on clever-sounding nonsense.
"Why would we do such a thing, when we are both so well-educated?"
Why, indeed. I remembering being young and Knowing Everything. The wonderful thing about having one's eyes opened to the truth of faith is the humbling discovery that, in fact, I know so very little. We live surrounded by the miraculous.
"We live surrounded by the miraculous." I love this. I'm so grateful for both of us that we found our way out of the darkness of Knowing Everything.
As for Dutch lawyer in the anecdote above, I do not think he thought he was being rude, just curious and blunt. I address this more in my response to Anita, above, but this kind of bluntness is very much a Dutch cultural value.
This must be a cultural thing, which is more expected and less surprising from a Dutch European: What struck me about your story is how incredibly rude your fellow party goer seemed to me. Why would one say such a thing to a person who has just done something that is so deeply meaningful and takes so much work and dedication as converting to Catholicism? I'm not Catholic, myself -- I no longer even consider myself a Christian. After decades of consideration, I'm an agnostic who leans towards Buddhism. Still, I respect how meaningful many religions are to those who follow them, and Catholicism (which I have always admired even though, as I said, I don't feel connected to any Christian faith, myself) is a complex and deeply devoted faith. How could a person be so belittling of religion when they've just been told the person standing in front of them has accomplished so much in dedication to their own faith?
Then again, this makes me think of an American I once dated (Ron, who you met at least once, Rachel), an atheist who had lived in the European Netherlands for six years before I met him. At the time, I thought of him as an example of the kind of very smart but unearnedly arrogant young person who likes to hang out in coffee shops, writing bad poetry and contemplating the emptiness of existence, and who also feels very superior to anyone who isn't an atheist like themselves -- a very American way to be young, in my experience. But maybe it was even more Dutch European culture I was seeing in him?
This is definitely a Dutch cultural thing. Statements that would come across as being rude from an American perspective (or a Caribbean perspective) are seen as just being honest to a lot of Dutch people; indeed, I've heard the opposite criticism made that Americans are behaving dishonestly in not being as blunt about their opinions. In the case of my Dutch lawyer interlocutor, I don't think he perceived himself as being rude at all. He seemed more confused and flabbergasted than anything. There is definitely a perception among the European Dutch that religion is something only uneducated people do; since this guy knows what my day job is, I think he found it legit fascinating and freaky that someone with a doctorate in a science is an adult convert to Catholicism. He has other friends who are Catholic (like the host of the party), but I think it's been easier to write them off as "well, they were raised that way."
I had forgotten (or perhaps had not known) that Ron lived in the European Netherlands for several years, but, yeah, that adds up. I think the combination of being argumentative about atheism and spending several formative years in a culture that teaches that is it is morally virtuous to be blunt would be an especially heady mix for a smart young man like him.
It could have been worse. Back when I was an art student and Knew Everything, I had a classmate who, when I first met him, mentioned that he was considering becoming a priest.
I laughed.
Thankfully, he didn't take it as a particular insult, and we went on the become friends. After graduation, he did indeed become a priest, and in a way that encounter planted a seed which ultimately helped guide me back to the church.
How interesting. I might be more comfortable in the Netherlands than I am in the US (er, for cultural reasons, not just because of current US politics)! I've often thought that some cultures are better for certain neurotypes and personality types. For example, Japan has a very introverted culture where people, overall, talk a lot less than Americans do, and I always thought I'd fit in better there.
And if the Dutch tend to be blunt and more comfortable with bluntness, maybe autistic people would get by better there than in the US. I have noticed cultural differences between autistic people who were diagnosed as kids, who tend to be blunt, then explain that they're autistic if someone is offended, and then feel that's permission to go right on being blunt, and late-diagnosed autistic people (like me), who have spent decades still offending people with our bluntness, but having no idea why. We late-discovered ones learn how to mask over time -- how to fit in with non-autistic folks as well as we can, and how well we can do varies from person to person. Even though I didn't know why until I was in my late 40s, I always knew that I tended to say things and then see right away that I wasn't supposed to say that, so I spent my life consciously trying to figure out the patterns and often apologizing profusely (and feeling really dumb) on the occasions when I didn't quite get it. I try very hard to be considerate and polite, but I also often fail because I missed a cue or assumption that was more clear to people with other kinds of brains.
Maybe I should start shopping for a culture that suits me better. I love the British, but they seem to have even more unspoken rules than Americans do! The Dutch might be my kind of folks, though.
A fine bit of journalism. Well done.
Thank you! And thank you for reading.
“was smart. I devoured works by Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, finding in New Atheism the comfort they mocked believers for finding in faith.”
Didn’t we all.
"We all did a lot of things when we were young that we come to regret." And for so, so many of us it was spending way too much time and energy on clever-sounding nonsense.
"Why would we do such a thing, when we are both so well-educated?"
Why, indeed. I remembering being young and Knowing Everything. The wonderful thing about having one's eyes opened to the truth of faith is the humbling discovery that, in fact, I know so very little. We live surrounded by the miraculous.
"We live surrounded by the miraculous." I love this. I'm so grateful for both of us that we found our way out of the darkness of Knowing Everything.
As for Dutch lawyer in the anecdote above, I do not think he thought he was being rude, just curious and blunt. I address this more in my response to Anita, above, but this kind of bluntness is very much a Dutch cultural value.